violin: second finger lifts up

[moo moo]

Hello,

Re fiddle: When Im playing C on the A string (first position second
finger close?), I find it extremely difficult to put my third finger
down on the d without having to lift my second finger. If I keep the
second finger down, the 3rd finger will not stretch up to the d. I
practice (made up) exercises to keep the 2nd finger down and increase
the gap between the 2nd and 3rd fingers. I guess it is very very
slowly getting better (I think the 2nd finger use to lift up
unconciously really high). Everything else has got easier with time
and practice and I find that I can suddenly do things that were
physically really difficult before without even specifically
practising them. There are things that I know will just get better
with time and simply cannot be forced. However this second finger
lifting seems like a definite physical obstacle. Thing is now when I
play pieces Im really aware of it happening and Im not happy to play
pieces with the second finger lifting up (like I used to), so its kind
of distracting.

Ive only been playing for 7 months but Im steaming ahead apparently, I
love it. I guess Im wondering whether:

it is truelly necessary to keep it down

or dont worry too much as it will sort itself out eventually, just do
exercises everyday but then forget about it

or is it possible that I may never be able to do it? (although this
will make me more determine to crack it!)

are there tricks/work arounds with the fingering which might help

many thanks

m

p.s on the table I notice that keeping 1,2 and 3,4 paired I can move
the two pairs apart a lot more on my right hand than on my left. In
fact they hardly move on my left hand. Maybe I should practice on the
table separating them on the left hand while Im in work.

[Paul Brady]

Post by moo moo
it is truelly necessary to keep it down

I once read Leopold Auer's book on violin playing. (No, I did not
learn to play as well as his other student, Heifitz). But very early
into the book he gives this rule, which I try to follow as best I can:
"When moving from string to string in a continuous passage, NEVER let
life your finger off the first string before you are solidly playing
on the other."

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Paul Brady

Post by moo moo
it is truelly necessary to keep it down

I once read Leopold Auer's book on violin playing. (No, I did not
learn to play as well as his other student, Heifitz). But very early
"When moving from string to string in a continuous passage, NEVER let
life your finger off the first string before you are solidly playing
on the other."

That would have been the same Leopold Auer who said "you practice until it
hurts -- and then you keep on practicing until it stops hurting."

Don't do that!

But if you can find (perhaps with a teacher's help) a better posture for
your hand (and fingers and especially thumb), it may make that nasty
stretch from two to three more manageable -- then, and only then, can you
reasonably think about holding fingers down (always without pressing or
squeezing too hard!!). The hand will become more flexible and the fingers
more independent with practice, as the OP has noticed -- but there will
always be a limit to how independent the third finger can be, because of
our physiology.

Speaking as a violist, I don't make a fetish of keeping 2 down when placing
3, especially if 4 is going to be needed immediately afterward! I
recommend playing viola for a while (say, about 20 years) if you want to
convince yourself that the violin presents imposes no physical limitations
on the player -- by contrast with the viola, it doesn't!

[J. Teske]

Post by moo moo
m
p.s on the table I notice that keeping 1,2 and 3,4 paired I can move
the two pairs apart a lot more on my right hand than on my left. In
fact they hardly move on my left hand. Maybe I should practice on the
table separating them on the left hand while Im in work.

This is exactly the exercise I was given in my first year of playing
(in 1952 at age 10.) I happen to be naturally left-handed but play
violin conventionally. I don't remember how long it took me to be
able to do this but I can do it with either hand now, even though this
is not neccessary for the bow hand...but it is neccessary for piano
which I also play, but not at the same level as violin.

It must be fairly difficult for an adult to master this and I have won
more than a few drinks by challenging friends to put their first and
third fingers on the bar (tavern bar in this case) and simultaneously
move their second and fourth fingers. As might be expected from
someone who has played violin (classical, BTW) as long as I have, it
is pretty easy for me, and I can do this at a very rapid pace. It
appears to be nearly impossible for someone, not a musician and of
legal drinking age or above, to do this with any degree of fluency.
Learn this trick, and you may never have to buy a drink again.

Yet another argument for starting violin at a tender age. I suppose
kids under 21 could play this for Cokes :-).

Jon Teske, violinist

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by J. Teske
Yet another argument for starting violin at a tender age. I suppose
kids under 21 could play this for Cokes :-).

Yeah, that's just what today's kids need: more sugar and caffeine.

Their parents, no less than their teachers, will be thanking you endlessly.

[J. Teske]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:51:46 -0500, Roland Hutchinson

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by J. Teske
Yet another argument for starting violin at a tender age. I suppose
kids under 21 could play this for Cokes :-).

Yeah, that's just what today's kids need: more sugar and caffeine.

Unless, like me, they drink Caffeine Free Diet Coke. There must be
something evil in that too.

Post by Roland Hutchinson
Their parents, no less than their teachers, will be thanking you endlessly.

My wife, when she was an elementary school principal, dreaded Easter,
Valentines Day and especially Halloween when she would have 550 kids,
10 % if whom were emotionally disturbed Spec Ed kid and virtually all
of them from poor families with even poorer nurtition habits coming to
school with major sugar highs and even more candy in their brown bags.

Jon Teske

[William Mutch]

Post by moo moo
Hello,
Re fiddle: When Im playing C on the A string (first position second
finger close?), I find it extremely difficult to put my third finger
down on the d without having to lift my second finger. If I keep the
second finger down, the 3rd finger will not stretch up to the d. I
practice (made up) exercises to keep the 2nd finger down and increase
the gap between the 2nd and 3rd fingers. I guess it is very very
slowly getting better (I think the 2nd finger use to lift up
unconciously really high). Everything else has got easier with time
and practice and I find that I can suddenly do things that were
physically really difficult before without even specifically
practising them. There are things that I know will just get better
with time and simply cannot be forced. However this second finger
lifting seems like a definite physical obstacle. Thing is now when I
play pieces Im really aware of it happening and Im not happy to play
pieces with the second finger lifting up (like I used to), so its kind
of distracting.

I've suffered a similar problem for years, except that for me it
is the index finger which will not stay down when I use middle and ring
fingers. Some finger independence exercises have helped but not
eliminated the problem. It definitely slows my playing.

Post by moo moo
Ive only been playing for 7 months but Im steaming ahead apparently, I
it is truelly necessary to keep it down

I can fiddle simple material OK despite the problem, but it limits
my ability to advance into more violinistic technique.

Post by moo moo
or dont worry too much as it will sort itself out eventually, just do
exercises everyday but then forget about it
or is it possible that I may never be able to do it? (although this
will make me more determine to crack it!)
are there tricks/work arounds with the fingering which might help

One early teacher suggested wrapping a weak rubber band loosely
around the index finger in the bent position. Didn't work.

Post by moo moo
many thanks
m
p.s on the table I notice that keeping 1,2 and 3,4 paired I can move
the two pairs apart a lot more on my right hand than on my left. In
fact they hardly move on my left hand. Maybe I should practice on the
table separating them on the left hand while Im in work.

I've used similar exercises. they do help.

[moo moo]

thanks everybody for your comments/encouragement,

I think subtle changes in the left hand position can make a big
difference. I need to experiment a bit. I talked to my teacher about
it. He says yes I need to keep the fingers down but dont worry, it
just takes time, that I haven't been playing long and it will get
better. He didn't give any exerices or advice, which is not good I
think. Actually he says that about everything at the moment and
doesn't actually teach me anything! Apparently Im progressing far
quicker than any of his other students have ever done and I think he
doesn't really know how to handle me. I mostly teach myself. He says
we'll get much more technical later and that for now I just need to
play and play and gives me lots of pieces to play every week, which
progressively get harder (at a good pace though). I'm the only one who
is analysing my playing and working out what Im ready to 'improve' on
and what to do to improve it. I haven't told him Ive just got the
Natalie MacMaster fiddle tuition video. I'll keep quiet about that. He
keeps saying dont bother with embellishments/rhythmic changes yet,
just play it straight (with the folk stuff - o-neils book). Therefore
in his lessons I hold back and dont even try to do the things I do at
home because if I dont get it right straight away he'll tell me to
stop and just play it straight for now. But because I know he'll tell
me to stop I feel under pressure and so I dont get it right straight
away and then Im kicking myself later for messing up! I think a mix of
playing straight and then letting go and trying to play it like a
fiddle even if you do mess up sometimes is better. Besides its fun,
challenging and very rewarding...yeah bring it on!

Ive digressed quite a bit now so I'll shut up and get back to work:(