Orchestra chairs

[Eve]

I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who decides
on chairs? How do you keep your chair (beside practice)? How do you move
forward or back? Are you judged between seasons? Does a lesser chair
approach the conductor with a challenge for the chair in front of him/her?
Do you then have to prove yourself worthy? Are you tested on a regular
basis?

I think you have the general idea. Any comments...Jon, Mary Ellen,
Roland...others?

Thanks,
Eve...who has developed so much respect for those who've made it

[Karl Perry]

Post by Eve
I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who decides
on chairs? How do you keep your chair (beside practice)? How do you move
forward or back? Are you judged between seasons? Does a lesser chair
approach the conductor with a challenge for the chair in front of him/her?
Do you then have to prove yourself worthy? Are you tested on a regular
basis?

In the school orchestras I played in, we challenged to move up. Generally,
the younger students played second and the older students played first (in
Jr. High (7-9 grades), 7th played second, 8-9 alternated based on ability)
etc.

In the community orchestra where I play now, it's the player's choice. We
have a very good violinist who played professionally as our concertmaster.
Unfortunately, she's a very nice lady who doesn't like to enforce
discipline. So, players get to say which section they'll play in, and
except for her seat and my seat (next to hers) it's more or less seniority
and tradition. The second principal seat depends a lot on my professional
work schedule - if I can afford the time to practice I play assistant
concertmaster (2nd chair first), but if my schedule demands a less demanding
rehearsal schedule I'll play principal second - less demanding technically
since I'm not typically in the upper positions.

Since we're an all-comers orchestra without strong leadership I don't see
this changing any time soon.

Karl Perry

[Jon Teske]

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 11:18:41 -0800, "Karl Perry"

Post by Eve

Post by Eve
I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who

decides

Post by Eve
on chairs?

Ultimately the conductor, but in practice the concertmistress or the
personnel manager (who is always a string player in my groups.)
It is somewhat different in pro orchestras where normally vacancies
are advertised in specialty publications or union journals for
specific slots. Mary Ellen can better describe the dynamics of this.

Other than principals and concertmaster (some of whom are paid) when
you join or audition for an orchestra it is determined whether you can
play or not play in the orchestra...we sometimes tell folks they
really need more study or experience. Then it is determined if you
are capable of playing first violin which primarily means how well can
you play in the higher positions (the other musical difficulty factors
should be about equal) In a professional orchestra it would be
assumed that anyone in the second violin section is certainly capable
of playing first violin, but in amateur circles this is less so and
for the most part our first violinists are clearly more advance than
our second violins.

As an aside, since the second violin section is musically just as
important as the first violin section, I have proposed that on a
rotating basis we should rotate a few folks who normally play first
violin into the seconds to "carry the section" and coach less
experienced seconds. Conversly I would have some of the better
seconds occasionally play first violin to force them to improve their
upper position technique. So far my suggestion has fallen on deaf ears
even though I volunteered to start this practice off. I was told, "We
need you in the firsts."

How do you keep your chair (beside practice)? In my groups, at least
in theory, all but the first desk are supposed to rotate at each
concert. One group actually does this (although as a "ringer" I always
sit at the last desk, but I play on a 2-3 rehearsal and concert basis.
My other groups where I am a regular member, seating toward the front
seems to be a mish-mash. So in so and her partner sit at the third
desk because they have been there and together for the 26 years
existence of the orchestra and both are $1000/yr contributors. I
happen to be sitting in the #3 slot, but a woman who missed half the
concerts last years and returned for the second concert this year
thinks she should have that seat back. (She may find out what a nasty
SOB I really can be. I'm also a $1000/yr contributor although I don't
want to play that card.) I'm trying to force the conductor to make the
decision (something he seldom does in the string section since he
knows it is fraught with politics.) I just don't believe any of us
other than the principals have a "right" to any particular chair. I
don't think this woman has any more "right" to the chair than I do,
but I am not going to let her force me out of the chair on her own say
so. Another orchestra it seems to be just sit where there is a seat
open (attendance in this group is less strict than in the other two.)
I usually try to sit with someone who attends regularly and keep that
partner for the year. It doesn't always work out that way.

How do you move

Post by Eve

Post by Eve
forward or back? Are you judged between seasons? Does a lesser chair
approach the conductor with a challenge for the chair in front of him/her?

I have never seen a challenge at the adult level.

Post by Eve

Post by Eve
Do you then have to prove yourself worthy? Are you tested on a regular
basis?

No! I think the conductor does get involved more in the choice for
winds and brass where we have many more aspirants in the orchestra
than available slots. Two of the orchestras have nearly professional
grade wind and brass sections. The third orchestra is rather near the
U of Maryland and players who are not principals in the University
Orchestra will come to this orchestra for the chance at a principal's
slot or even any orchestral slot.

Post by Eve
In the school orchestras I played in, we challenged to move up. Generally,
the younger students played second and the older students played first (in
Jr. High (7-9 grades), 7th played second, 8-9 alternated based on ability)
etc.

This was pretty much my experience although I quit orchestra for 10th
and 11 grade because my 9th instructor didn't determine the winner of
a challenge, but let the players vote. I was concertmaster and my
assistant challenged me. I could play circles around her and even our
private teacher with whom we both studied said I was far better. But
she was a girl and I was not and the voting was almost totally on a
boy/girl split and since there were far more girls in the orchestra, I
lost the chair. While I stayed for the rest of the year, I was so
ticked because the conductor wouldn't take a stand on this, I didn't
take violin until my senior year by which time my very first violin
teacher was the high school music director and by an accident of the
alphabet my advisor in my junior year. He had to sign off on my senior
year schedule. He saw I had no class scheduled during the regular
orchestra period so he wrote that into my schedule and challenged me
to take him up on it. Many years later, the girl who beat me out of
the chair apologized to me at a class reunion and basically admitted
that I got screwed.

Post by Eve
In the community orchestra where I play now, it's the player's choice. We
have a very good violinist who played professionally as our concertmaster.
Unfortunately, she's a very nice lady who doesn't like to enforce
discipline. So, players get to say which section they'll play in, and
except for her seat and my seat (next to hers) it's more or less seniority
and tradition. The second principal seat depends a lot on my professional
work schedule - if I can afford the time to practice I play assistant
concertmaster (2nd chair first), but if my schedule demands a less demanding
rehearsal schedule I'll play principal second - less demanding technically
since I'm not typically in the upper positions.
Since we're an all-comers orchestra without strong leadership I don't see
this changing any time soon.

That is pretty much my view of how things work. For most of us it
really isn't that important where we sit. We have gotten rid of
players in one orchestra for poor attendance even in strings. In
winds and brass unexcused absences will ensure an early exit from the
orchestra because there are three people waiting for every slot we
have. I suspect in a less populated area than the Washington
Baltimore you would not have that luxury. We also got rid of one guy
who wouldn't conform to bowing norms and was disruptive in rehearsal
(he was probably going senile, he was quite elderly) we also dismissed
a brass player with a drinking problem and the few high school age
players we have had better be there all the time (the conductor
doesn't really like the idea of high school players in the adult
orchestra but that may be because he is also the conductor of an
all-metro, all-star youth orchestra.)
Jon Teske

[Ken Moore]

Post by Karl Perry
In the community orchestra where I play now, it's the player's choice. We
have a very good violinist who played professionally as our concertmaster.
Unfortunately, she's a very nice lady who doesn't like to enforce
discipline. So, players get to say which section they'll play in, and
except for her seat and my seat (next to hers) it's more or less seniority
and tradition. The second principal seat depends a lot on my professional
work schedule - if I can afford the time to practice I play assistant
concertmaster (2nd chair first), but if my schedule demands a less demanding
rehearsal schedule I'll play principal second - less demanding technically
since I'm not typically in the upper positions.

I'm surprised your conductor doesn't take an interest in this. When I
was conducting a string orchestra, I used to discuss seating with the
leader, even though all sections were quite small.

Christopher Adey, ex-professional violinist and now a conductor, has
written a book about running youth and community orchestras (I think its
name is "Orchestral technique") which discusses this (and many other
things) at length. He takes into account not merely the technical
competence of the players, but also their psychological make-up. For
example, he considers outside back desk of firsts as a uniquely isolated
position, suitable only for someone with the confidence to play while
feeling as much part of the audience as of the orchestra. He also
discusses the various character traits required by the leader, the
inside front desk player and the outside second desk player.

George Hurst, who is not a string player himself, takes a considerable
interest in string seating. From him, I first heard the idea (but it
seems obvious in retrospect) that strong players (i.e. the ones with the
best sound) should sit on the outside, so that they continue playing
during page turns, rather than towards the front. Also strong players
towards the back provide a more distributed sound (do any of your
conductors say that a good sound must come from the back desks?). In
the early 60s, shortly after I first met him, he had been given the go-
ahead to expand the BBC Northern Orchestra to a full-size symphony
orchestra and had a deliberate policy of recruiting young players,
because their recent training had given them a better sound than that of
the experienced players (including some from the Hallé orchestra, also
Manchester based) who were applying for these secure BBC posts.
However, each of the new players had as stand partner one of his
experienced players who understood the business.

[Tho X. Bui]

If you're at all interested, you should visit your local community
orchestra during their rehearsals. Most of these are so desparate for
string players that their main requirement for participation are: (1)
access to a functional instrument, and (b) ability to absorb oxygen and
release carbon dioxide. each of our local communitity colleges almost
always have one orchestra.

You will then have the opportunity to develop important skills such as
"air-bowing", "stone-face" (after making a huge entrance blunder),
"tapping your toes quietly and discretely."

I sat in two or three rehearsals and watch before I worked up the nerve.
Kind of like lurking in a newsgroup:-)

Tho

Post by Eve
I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who decides
on chairs? How do you keep your chair (beside practice)? How do you move
forward or back? Are you judged between seasons? Does a lesser chair
approach the conductor with a challenge for the chair in front of him/her?
Do you then have to prove yourself worthy? Are you tested on a regular
basis?
I think you have the general idea. Any comments...Jon, Mary Ellen,
Roland...others?
Thanks,
Eve...who has developed so much respect for those who've made it

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Tho X. Bui
If you're at all interested, you should visit your local community
orchestra during their rehearsals. Most of these are so desparate for
string players that their main requirement for participation are: (1)
access to a functional instrument, and (b) ability to absorb oxygen
and release carbon dioxide.

In many cases requirement (b) can be waived for otherwise qualified
candidates.

Around here (thickly settled northern New Jersey, with a number of
volunteer orchestras to choose from), community orchestra string
players seem to be largely self-selected. Players will gravitate to an
orchestra and a section and a place in the section that they feel
comfortable playing. Even the choice of a section principal often
comes down to a matter of who among the two or three apparently
qualified players in a section is able willing to volunteer to take on
the responsibility and able to commit to being at all (or nearly all)
of the rehearsals, or of who the players in the section (including the
incumbant principal) can persuade to take over the job from one season
to the next. Seating within sections seems to be largely by consensus,
with the principal or the conductor having a say in the unlikely event
that there isn't a consensus. Most players aren't very bothered about
where they sit, and many will move themselves back if an obviously
stronger player has joined the section, and urge the stronger player to
move forward. In one orchestra an attempt to write all this down
resulted in a dollar or two being spent on photocopying a proposed
draft of an official policy, followed by total indifference to the idea
of written guidelines, no further action being taken, and of course no
change whatsoever in the status quo. I personally wouldn't mind seeing
a system of rotation adopted, but I think a lot of players would
perceive that as someone telling them to sit where they don't
necessarily want to.

[bob]

Post by Eve
I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who
decides on chairs?

Some orchestras have an audition procedure, where players play infront of a
three judge (or so) panel, with a screen between them. They get a score.
Anytime they are auditioning, any member can re-audition for a new score.
Higher scores = better chairs.

The other orchestras have seats assigned either by the conductor or the
manager. These orchestras seem to be much more political. The former seem
to be more musical.

Bob

[David Keenan]

Post by bob

Post by Eve
I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who
decides on chairs?

Some orchestras have an audition procedure, where players play infront of a
three judge (or so) panel, with a screen between them. They get a score.
Anytime they are auditioning, any member can re-audition for a new score.
Higher scores = better chairs.

I read that the San Diego Symphony uses a screen for autitioning new members
to prevent any gender-based decisions. The auditioner responds to judges'
questions through a proctor as well. I've heard of first and second chairs,
and
figured that the rest of them were a matter of who can get there first and
set up.
My main concern (if I were a musician in the first place) would be a place
to fit
my long legs and big feet. ;-)

Post by bob
The other orchestras have seats assigned either by the conductor or the
manager. These orchestras seem to be much more political. The former seem
to be more musical.
Bob
--
Delete the inverse SPAM to reply

[VEGGIEPETA]

In our commnity orchestra, the director favors strings still in high school
over oldies. Some of the placements are justified, others not.

[Jim Thompson]

Hi Eve,

Thanks for the good thread, I 've enjoyed reading the responses.

Here's a story. One of the two orchestras I play in is still a young group
having just started in September 2001. Being an extreme newbie to orchestra
playing I naturally sat way in the back. Our 2nd rehearsal was the day
before 9/11 and I almost did not attend the third, being still in a state of
shock. However, there was a thread on this NG related to 9/11 and if I
recall correctly it was Mr. Teske's impassioned response that influenced me
to get the fiddle out and not sit home feeling sorry for myself. So I
went -- The only other 2nd present that night was the principal and she
insisted I join her up in front. We became friends and that's where I sat
for the first concert. Jon, I'm glad I listened to you.

As the group evolved, a few seating assignments were made by the conductor
but it was mostly up to the players. One of the more experienced players
made the point that it can be a good thing, when there is a mix of skill
levels, to pair up stronger players with the less experienced . This can
provide the newbies (like me) with a role model and help them grow.

This seems to work. Many of our players are "closet musicians". Sometimes we
will get someone new who may have just dusted off their fiddle after years
in the closet, and they can be nervous about playing again. We will
sometimes deliberately pair them up with a an understanding mentor.

So we are pretty loose about seating. This year I observed for lack of
assignments, the front seats tend to fill up based on who gets their first.
I've other orchestra duties (running errands and helping setup) and am often
the last to sit down and end up in the back. But as long as there's a chair
to sit in -- no complaints! As we approach our concert (11/21) we are
becoming more consistent about seating however.

Jim

Post by Eve
I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who decides
on chairs? How do you keep your chair (beside practice)? How do you move
forward or back? Are you judged between seasons? Does a lesser chair
approach the conductor with a challenge for the chair in front of him/her?
Do you then have to prove yourself worthy? Are you tested on a regular
basis?
I think you have the general idea. Any comments...Jon, Mary Ellen,
Roland...others?
Thanks,
Eve...who has developed so much respect for those who've made it

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[DGoree]

"Eve" ***@yahoo.com wrote,

<<I've been wondering lately about the insider look to orchestras. Who decides
on chairs? How do you keep your chair (beside practice)? How do you move
forward or back? Are you judged between seasons? Does a lesser chair
approach the conductor with a challenge for the chair in front of him/her?
Do you then have to prove yourself worthy? Are you tested on a regular
basis?

I think you have the general idea. Any comments...Jon, Mary Ellen,
Roland...others?>>

There are professional orchestras where every chair is specifically assigned
but mine, like many others, uses rotating seating except for the titled chairs.
People play in whichever section (first or second) that they won the audition
for--always a national audition--if there is an opening in the firsts, second
violin section players are welcome to audition for it but will be competing in
the finals against all other finalists from the nationally advertised audition.
Other than that the rotation is specified from the beginning of the year so
that you always know on which stand and with whom you will be sitting for any
given concert, and so that there is an even distribution of opportunities to
sit in the front, middle and back. The first three chairs in the firsts and
first two chairs in the seconds (that's my standpartner and me) are titled and
do not rotate.

When one of the titled players is missing, it is up to the section leader's
discretion who to move up. I try to spread these opportunities around as
equally as possible while making sure that I have a stronger player with me if
it is an important or difficult concert.

I remember a concert when we did William Tell overture and the absolute weakest
player in the cello section happened to be sitting where he was playing one of
the solo lines. Yikes.

No judging between seasons, no chair tests, no challenges....the union wouldn't
stand for this (sic).

We do have a tenure process. During your first two years with the orchestra,
you are considered probationary and can be let go pretty easily though in
practice it rarely happens. Once you sign your contract for the third year,
you have tenure and it becomes much more difficult (though not impossible) to
be fired for musical cause.

I find it amusing when people ask me why I don't try to get into the first
violin section. Uh, because it would be a pay cut and a demotion, that's why.

Mary Ellen

[Paul Goble]

Post by DGoree
The first three
chairs in the firsts and first two chairs in the seconds (that's my
standpartner and me) are titled and do not rotate.

I've noticed a trend toward using this system in both amateur and
professional orchestras. I love it. Rotation does a lot to
damp the ego wars that can occur in an orchestra, while giving
all players a new point of view (literally) on how sound blends
across the orchestra. It also gives everyone a chance to see how the
concertmaster makes decisions--decisions which can seem detached,
cruel, or mysterious to a perpetually-back-of-the-section player.

Do many school orchestras use rotation nowadays?

In community orchestras, sometimes the conductor or concertmaster
has to override the system a bit, so that (for example) someone
with very poor eyesight can remain in the chair where they
see the best, or to make sure that there's SOMEONE in the back of
the section who can count in time with the conductor.
The rotation scheme can be tuned to keep the stand partners together,
or to constantly mix stand partners (handy if there are some
"difficult" personalities that no one wants to sit next to for
very long or if there are some excellent mentors that everyone
wants to learn from).

Paul

[Jenrose]

Post by Paul Goble
In community orchestras, sometimes the conductor or concertmaster
has to override the system a bit, so that (for example) someone
with very poor eyesight can remain in the chair where they
see the best, or to make sure that there's SOMEONE in the back of
the section who can count in time with the conductor.

I don't know what the group she's in is doing this year, but my daughter's
orchestra last year kept her in the back row of the seconds simply because
she was one of the only ones who could read and count and play no matter
what was falling apart around her. They needed *someone* in the seconds who
could play something that wasn't the melody!

Jenrose

[DGoree]

Jenrose" ***@nospamefn.org wrote,

<<I don't know what the group she's in is doing this year, but my daughter's
orchestra last year kept her in the back row of the seconds simply because
she was one of the only ones who could read and count and play no matter
what was falling apart around her. They needed *someone* in the seconds who
could play something that wasn't the melody!>>

The back of the seconds is one of the absolute hardest places to sit in an
orchestra. It's very helpful to have a good player there, especially one with
good rhythm.

Mary Ellen

[Carl Witthoft]

Post by DGoree
<<I don't know what the group she's in is doing this year, but my daughter's
orchestra last year kept her in the back row of the seconds simply because
she was one of the only ones who could read and count and play no matter
what was falling apart around her. They needed *someone* in the seconds who
could play something that wasn't the melody!>>
The back of the seconds is one of the absolute hardest places to sit in an
orchestra. It's very helpful to have a good player there, especially one with
good rhythm.
Mary Ellen

Yep -- my high school band director (remember, this was a different
musical incarnation for me) placed the top auditioner in the solo chair,
the second place led the second section, and for the clarinets, third
place led the third section, and so on.

[Jenrose]

Post by DGoree
The back of the seconds is one of the absolute hardest places to sit in an
orchestra. It's very helpful to have a good player there, especially one with
good rhythm.

The fact that she's been trained from babyhood to carry a note regardless of
what's been going around her probably helps... (We used to hum
together--when she was about 10 months old she could match my pitch, by age
3 she would sustain one note while I moved my note around hers--we made this
into a silly game where she "burbled" her lips with her finger on a drone
note, and by the time she was six we were so good at it that we did a cute
talent show performance at our church with it that had everyone in
stitches.)

One moment last year stuck out... the whole orchestra fell apart, basically,
and everyone just gave up and stopped playing, except my kid, who was just
blithly playing her part, all along, correctly, until she realized everyone
was staring at her...

As for rhythm, it must be inborn. I'm great with pitch and intonation and
absolutely average with rhythm. My parents bought her the violin, they say
to me, "As revenge for all the noise you made as a kid." Heh. She turned out
good... it was only difficult to hear her practice for about a week after
her first lesson. So they threatened to buy her a drum kit... and I reminded
them that she'd be good at that too!

But I do hope that she gets to have some more obvious leadership
positions--she's a rock solid player and doesn't push herself forward much,
so she gets put in the "We need a rock solid player" positions. It would be
nice to be able to see her at a concert now and then! Last week I got to see
her ankle at the concert, because she's a head shorter than most of the
people in the front row!

I'm hoping a better instrument will help--hers is just so *not* a joy to
listen to, even though her playing is spot on, the instrument is just not
pleasant. Sort of like listening to someone sing an aria in perfect pitch
with a nasal twang...

Jenrose.

[DGoree]

"Jenrose" ***@nospamefn.org wrote,

<<I'm hoping a better instrument will help--hers is just so *not* a joy to
listen to, even though her playing is spot on, the instrument is just not
pleasant. Sort of like listening to someone sing an aria in perfect pitch
with a nasal twang...>>

What size violin is she playing on?

My guess is that she'll develop leadership skills as she gets older and
bigger....but rock solid is a really good base to build on. If only all of the
leaders I have worked with over the years could be described that way. It's
been a mixed bag.

Mary Ellen

[Jenrose]

Post by DGoree
<<I'm hoping a better instrument will help--hers is just so *not* a joy to
listen to, even though her playing is spot on, the instrument is just not
pleasant. Sort of like listening to someone sing an aria in perfect pitch
with a nasal twang...>>
What size violin is she playing on?
My guess is that she'll develop leadership skills as she gets older and
bigger....but rock solid is a really good base to build on. If only all of the
leaders I have worked with over the years could be described that way.

It's

Post by DGoree
been a mixed bag.
Mary Ellen

She's on a really wretched "Scotti" student 3/4 violin from Scott Cao. I am
suspecting the setup is the problem, as the person who set up her first
student violins through this shop did NOT handle the setup for her 3/4 size
violins, either of them. But at this point, I'm so pissed at the shop that I
would rather buy in the 3/4 size to cover the next year or so. I also got a
*very* (read, appallingly) cheap e-bay 4/4 (literally so cheap that if all
we keep is the case and hang the pretty thing on the wall and never play it,
we'll still not cry. That one is our "play with it to see how it ticks"
instrument. If it plays well, we'll be delighted. If it doesn't play at all,
it will look nice on top of Grandma's piano, next to the broken guitar, the
flute, the recorder, the mandolin, etc.... I'll get it in a few days and
we'll see if it's worth spending time or effort on. I'm willing to muddle
through learning setup and whatnot myself if need be--I like to hack, so it
would be kind of fun seeing if I could hack a cheapy violin into something
moderately playable that my kid can take to summer camp without crying if it
gets wet or squashed. (yes, really, that cheap.) I don't even think I'll be
buying music from this shop in the future, I'm so annoyed at them. Our
family has literally spent thousands of dollars there over the years, and
they're balking at pro-rating our lease for a measly 6 months, while trying
to push me into buying their overpriced garbage. I think the complete lack
of valuing a customer is probably what's got me most ticked. I'd even
consider a store credit reasonable, but they don't do anything of the kind
unless you buy from them, when I wouldn' t *need* to buy from them if they'd
provided decent instruments in the first place. </rant>

She did get a leadership award last year in the younger orchestra. I suspect
that with better instruments it will be easier for her to concentrate on
"shining" rather than on beating her axe into submission.

Jenrose

[DGoree]

"Jenrose" ***@nospamefn.org wrote,

<<I'd even
consider a store credit reasonable, but they don't do anything of the kind
unless you buy from them, when I wouldn' t *need* to buy from them if they'd
provided decent instruments in the first place. </rant>

She did get a leadership award last year in the younger orchestra. I suspect
that with better instruments it will be easier for her to concentrate on
"shining" rather than on beating her axe into submission.>>

You might want to look into getting her next instrument from mail-order,
depending on your location and budget. Shar and Southwest Strings both have
some pretty good step-up models. IIRC, Strings Magazine did an article about a
year or two ago comparing various "step-up" violins available (I think they
were aiming at a $1500 cutoff).

If I had a couple of thousand dollars extra to burn, I'd try out that violin
that Pinchas Zukerman endorses in the Shar catalog--I really need a decent gig
instrument so I can quit taking my good one outside.

Mary Ellen

[The Devil's Interval]

Post by DGoree
You might want to look into getting her next instrument from mail-order,
depending on your location and budget. Shar and Southwest Strings both have
some pretty good step-up models. IIRC, Strings Magazine did an article about a
year or two ago comparing various "step-up" violins available (I think they
were aiming at a $1500 cutoff).
If I had a couple of thousand dollars extra to burn, I'd try out that violin
that Pinchas Zukerman endorses in the Shar catalog--I really need a decent gig
instrument so I can quit taking my good one outside.

Shar and Southwest Strings have good reputations. You might also want to
look into purchasing a Doetsch (sp?) from Weavers & Potters in Bethesda,
MD. They will send you instruments for inspection by mail order. At one
point we looked at a small instrument from them; we didn't purchase it, but
they were very pleasant to deal with. We've purchased a lot of sheet music
and accessories and several cases through Shar, though never an instrument.

Karen

[Jenrose]

Post by DGoree
<<I'd even
consider a store credit reasonable, but they don't do anything of the kind
unless you buy from them, when I wouldn' t *need* to buy from them if they'd
provided decent instruments in the first place. </rant>
She did get a leadership award last year in the younger orchestra. I suspect
that with better instruments it will be easier for her to concentrate on
"shining" rather than on beating her axe into submission.>>
You might want to look into getting her next instrument from mail-order,
depending on your location and budget. Shar and Southwest Strings both have
some pretty good step-up models. IIRC, Strings Magazine did an article about a
year or two ago comparing various "step-up" violins available (I think they
were aiming at a $1500 cutoff).
If I had a couple of thousand dollars extra to burn, I'd try out that violin
that Pinchas Zukerman endorses in the Shar catalog--I really need a decent gig
instrument so I can quit taking my good one outside.

We are getting a 3/4 in the next couple of weeks that sounded better over
the phone than her current instrument does in person, set up. The cheapy 4/4
I just got we are very clear that if it works, great, but if it's a
wall-hanger, that's fine too. My expectation is that she'll be in the 3/4
another year (I really, really want her in it longer--I think she moved up
to 3/4 too soon and she's just getting to the point where she's consistently
fixing a long-standing fault in left-wrist position. I don't want her
stretching to reach a 4/4 yet) and if we can wait that full year, we should
have funds available to get something in the $1000-$1500 range, 'specially
if her dad catches up on child support, etc...

The alternative is to see if someone will sponsor her, be it a corporate
sponsor or one of her 6 grandparents...<wry grin>. She's got a step-grandma
who loves opera and an aunt who is a strings teacher (Viola, maybe? I
forget--she's not my sister...) and her other grandparents have been renting
her instruments for the past 4 years.

Jenrose

[deloid]

All our children played with purchased rather than rental violins. There is
satisfaction and a stimulus created from playing a beautiful sounding
violin. I agree with all the comments concerning set-up.....critical for
ease of play and enjoyment.

Robertson violins has the "purchase/trade up" and has helped us with
excellent selections. They are also selling one of our 3/4 violins
(affordable and excellent sound)in consignment.
http://www.robertsonviolins.com/

Dean Lapinel

Post by Jenrose

Post by DGoree
<<I'd even
consider a store credit reasonable, but they don't do anything of the kind
unless you buy from them, when I wouldn' t *need* to buy from them if

they'd

Post by DGoree
provided decent instruments in the first place. </rant>
She did get a leadership award last year in the younger orchestra. I

suspect

Post by DGoree
that with better instruments it will be easier for her to concentrate on
"shining" rather than on beating her axe into submission.>>
You might want to look into getting her next instrument from mail-order,
depending on your location and budget. Shar and Southwest Strings both

have

Post by DGoree
some pretty good step-up models. IIRC, Strings Magazine did an article

about a

Post by DGoree
year or two ago comparing various "step-up" violins available (I think

they

Post by DGoree
were aiming at a $1500 cutoff).
If I had a couple of thousand dollars extra to burn, I'd try out that

violin

Post by DGoree
that Pinchas Zukerman endorses in the Shar catalog--I really need a

decent

Post by Jenrose
gig

Post by DGoree
instrument so I can quit taking my good one outside.

We are getting a 3/4 in the next couple of weeks that sounded better over
the phone than her current instrument does in person, set up. The cheapy 4/4
I just got we are very clear that if it works, great, but if it's a
wall-hanger, that's fine too. My expectation is that she'll be in the 3/4
another year (I really, really want her in it longer--I think she moved up
to 3/4 too soon and she's just getting to the point where she's consistently
fixing a long-standing fault in left-wrist position. I don't want her
stretching to reach a 4/4 yet) and if we can wait that full year, we should
have funds available to get something in the $1000-$1500 range, 'specially
if her dad catches up on child support, etc...
The alternative is to see if someone will sponsor her, be it a corporate
sponsor or one of her 6 grandparents...<wry grin>. She's got a

step-grandma

Post by Jenrose
who loves opera and an aunt who is a strings teacher (Viola, maybe? I
forget--she's not my sister...) and her other grandparents have been renting
her instruments for the past 4 years.
Jenrose

[DGoree]

"deloid" ***@cableone.net wrote,

<<Robertson violins has the "purchase/trade up" and has helped us with
excellent selections. They are also selling one of our 3/4 violins
(affordable and excellent sound)in consignment.
<A
HREF="http://www.robertsonviolins.com/">http://www.robertsonviolins.com/</A>>>

Oh yes, I forgot about Robertson violins. My younger son is playing on a 1/4
from Robertson that is a nice little instrument--we bought it a few years ago
for his older brother.

Mary Ellen