Discussion:
Harmonics on double bass in music by Ravel
(too old to reply)
Ian
2005-04-19 15:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Am I right that when Ravel in 'Mother Goose' suite, for example,
writes what I would expect to be a C sharp as a diamond shape, he
wants me to put my finger there and play whatever the harmonic that
sounds at that position? I seem to think Ravel is idiosyncratic in
this. Incidentally, what note will sound at the C sharp position on
the A string? Any bassists less confused than me out there?

Greetings,
Ian
Roland Hutchinson
2005-04-19 18:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian
Am I right that when Ravel in 'Mother Goose' suite, for example,
writes what I would expect to be a C sharp as a diamond shape, he
wants me to put my finger there and play whatever the harmonic that
sounds at that position?
Pretty much, yes.

Ravel however (along with Stravinsky, and ?others) has been known to write a
diamond notehead on the pitch of an open string, expecting the harmonic to
sound either an octave or two octaves higher -- which strikes me as
incorrect and perverse, but it seems to be the case, and to have been
more-or-less standard at one time. (Which case? Well, if I've got it
straight, when Ravel writes a diamond at the pitch of the lowest open
string of the viola, it sounds two octaves higher, but when Stravinsky does
the same thing it sounds one octave higher -- at least when it's Mother
Goose and Pulcinella [suite for orchestra] respectively; I wouldn't count
on consistency even from work to work of the same composer on something
like this.)
Post by Ian
I seem to think Ravel is idiosyncratic in this.
Aside from possibly the bit I complained about where he writes open string
notes as diamonds, no, not really. Writing a diamond on the node is one of
the standard ways of notating natural harmonics. (As our engineer friends
are fond of saying, "the nice thing about standards is that there are so
many to choose from") The main problem with this notation is that you have
to know what string is intended to be played on and it isn't always
indicated when it needs to be. Another other problem that sometimes arises
is telling half notes from quarter notes, since both are commonly written
as a hollow diamond with a stem!

(The other common way of notating natural hamonics is to just write the
sounding pitch and put a little circle over it. This leaves the choice of
string to the player when more than one is possible. NB in double-bass
parts it IS often the sounding pitch rather than an octave lower as in
normal bass notation, and sometimes the composer is nice enough to indicate
that this is the case, but not always. Some composers, knowing that string
players will sometimes second-guess their intentions and play harmonic
pitches in a different way than they indicate, have been tempted to throw
in the towel alltoghether and write both natural and artificial harmonics
this way, leaving the player to sort out how to do all of them; this does
not make for easy sight reading, nor does it inspire confidence that the
composer undersands what is being asked for, especially when unplayable
harmonic notes are asked for!)
Post by Ian
Incidentally, what note will sound at the C sharp position on
the A string?
I assume you mean C sharp written on the second space of the bass clef. (If
that's not the case, perhaps the following discussion will help you to
figure out the notation you are looking at for yourself anyway.)

It sounds C sharp, two octaves higher. You can also get the same pitch as a
harmonic at other places on the A string by touching nodes at (in order
from lowest to highest) F sharp (major sixth above the open string), C
sharp (major tenth), and C sharp (major seventeenth). These four points
divide the string into five parts, so the note produced is the one that
vibrates five times as fast as the open string A, i.e. the fifth harmonic
of the harmonic series starting on that fundamental.

If you've been paying very close attention, however, you may now see a
problem: the same notated diamond on C sharp taken as a node on the E
string would be at the major 6th above the open string and give you a
G-sharp harmonic, a fourth lower than C-sharp harmonic on the A string.

So there had better be an explicit indication (e.g. "sul A" or "IIIe" or
something along those lines) or a VERY clear musical context to tell you
which string you should be on.
Post by Ian
Any bassists less confused than me out there?
That, I couldn't tell you, not being a bassist myself.

The general rule for commonly used harmonics, both natural and -- within the
constraints of what the hand can reach -- artificial is as follows (in the
form Ïnterval of node above fundamental ==> Interval of sounding pitch
above fundamental, using the cello C2 string as fundamental for the sake of
furnishing a clear example realated to a harmonic series consisting of
notes of a key everyone likes to think in!):

Octave ==> octave (C3)
Perfect 5th, perfect 12th ==> perfect 12th (G3)
Perfect 4th, perfect 15th ==> perfect 15th (C4)
Major 3rd, major 6th, major 10th, major 17th ==> major 17th (E4)
(of these, the node at the major 6th is usually the most convenient and may
speak more easily than the one at the major third. The node at the major
third is also closer to other nodes that are crowded near the ends of the
string, so it's easier to grab the wrong node there.)
Minor 3rd, perfect 19th ==> perfect 19th (G4) (rare)

Bass players (who have very long strings to work with) seem to find even
more harmonic way up near and even beyond the end of the fingerboard in
solo work: perfect 22nd, major 23d, major 24th, perfect 26th I guess (C5,
D5, E5, G5), if not more... time to ask the bass players to weigh in with
the details. There are also the out-of-tune harmonics at the flat minor
21st (Bflat4) and almost-augmented 25th (F-kinda-sharp-5) (these last being
the seventh and eleventh notes of the harmonic series, as any brass player
should be able to tell you).
--
Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Ian
2005-04-21 11:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by Ian
Am I right that when Ravel in 'Mother Goose' suite, for example,
writes what I would expect to be a C sharp as a diamond shape, he
wants me to put my finger there and play whatever the harmonic that
sounds at that position?
Pretty much, yes.
Ravel however (along with Stravinsky, and ?others) has been known to write a
diamond notehead on the pitch of an open string, expecting the harmonic to
sound either an octave or two octaves higher -- which strikes me as
incorrect and perverse, but it seems to be the case, and to have been
more-or-less standard at one time. (Which case? Well, if I've got it
straight, when Ravel writes a diamond at the pitch of the lowest open
string of the viola, it sounds two octaves higher, but when Stravinsky does
the same thing it sounds one octave higher -- at least when it's Mother
Goose and Pulcinella [suite for orchestra] respectively; I wouldn't count
on consistency even from work to work of the same composer on something
like this.)
Post by Ian
I seem to think Ravel is idiosyncratic in this.
Aside from possibly the bit I complained about where he writes open string
notes as diamonds, no, not really. Writing a diamond on the node is one of
the standard ways of notating natural harmonics. (As our engineer friends
are fond of saying, "the nice thing about standards is that there are so
many to choose from") The main problem with this notation is that you have
to know what string is intended to be played on and it isn't always
indicated when it needs to be. Another other problem that sometimes arises
is telling half notes from quarter notes, since both are commonly written
as a hollow diamond with a stem!
(The other common way of notating natural hamonics is to just write the
sounding pitch and put a little circle over it. This leaves the choice of
string to the player when more than one is possible. NB in double-bass
parts it IS often the sounding pitch rather than an octave lower as in
normal bass notation, and sometimes the composer is nice enough to indicate
that this is the case, but not always. Some composers, knowing that string
players will sometimes second-guess their intentions and play harmonic
pitches in a different way than they indicate, have been tempted to throw
in the towel alltoghether and write both natural and artificial harmonics
this way, leaving the player to sort out how to do all of them; this does
not make for easy sight reading, nor does it inspire confidence that the
composer undersands what is being asked for, especially when unplayable
harmonic notes are asked for!)
Post by Ian
Incidentally, what note will sound at the C sharp position on
the A string?
I assume you mean C sharp written on the second space of the bass clef. (If
that's not the case, perhaps the following discussion will help you to
figure out the notation you are looking at for yourself anyway.)
It sounds C sharp, two octaves higher. You can also get the same pitch as a
harmonic at other places on the A string by touching nodes at (in order
from lowest to highest) F sharp (major sixth above the open string), C
sharp (major tenth), and C sharp (major seventeenth). These four points
divide the string into five parts, so the note produced is the one that
vibrates five times as fast as the open string A, i.e. the fifth harmonic
of the harmonic series starting on that fundamental.
If you've been paying very close attention, however, you may now see a
problem: the same notated diamond on C sharp taken as a node on the E
string would be at the major 6th above the open string and give you a
G-sharp harmonic, a fourth lower than C-sharp harmonic on the A string.
So there had better be an explicit indication (e.g. "sul A" or "IIIe" or
something along those lines) or a VERY clear musical context to tell you
which string you should be on.
Post by Ian
Any bassists less confused than me out there?
That, I couldn't tell you, not being a bassist myself.
The general rule for commonly used harmonics, both natural and -- within the
constraints of what the hand can reach -- artificial is as follows (in the
form Ïnterval of node above fundamental ==> Interval of sounding pitch
above fundamental, using the cello C2 string as fundamental for the sake of
furnishing a clear example realated to a harmonic series consisting of
Octave ==> octave (C3)
Perfect 5th, perfect 12th ==> perfect 12th (G3)
Perfect 4th, perfect 15th ==> perfect 15th (C4)
Major 3rd, major 6th, major 10th, major 17th ==> major 17th (E4)
(of these, the node at the major 6th is usually the most convenient and may
speak more easily than the one at the major third. The node at the major
third is also closer to other nodes that are crowded near the ends of the
string, so it's easier to grab the wrong node there.)
Minor 3rd, perfect 19th ==> perfect 19th (G4) (rare)
Bass players (who have very long strings to work with) seem to find even
more harmonic way up near and even beyond the end of the fingerboard in
solo work: perfect 22nd, major 23d, major 24th, perfect 26th I guess (C5,
D5, E5, G5), if not more... time to ask the bass players to weigh in with
the details. There are also the out-of-tune harmonics at the flat minor
21st (Bflat4) and almost-augmented 25th (F-kinda-sharp-5) (these last being
the seventh and eleventh notes of the harmonic series, as any brass player
should be able to tell you).
Thanks a lot Roland. I shall need to sit at the instrument and work
through what you write. It's very good of you to take the time.
Mother Goose performance is this coming weekend (25th April). I have
a feeling that the audience may not be too critical of the odd fluffed
harmonic. Thanks again.
Ian.
Carl Witthoft
2005-04-21 14:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian
Thanks a lot Roland. I shall need to sit at the instrument and work
through what you write. It's very good of you to take the time.
Mother Goose performance is this coming weekend (25th April). I have
a feeling that the audience may not be too critical of the odd fluffed
harmonic. Thanks again.
Ian.
They will if we make sure they've all been reading this thread :-)
Roland Hutchinson
2005-04-21 16:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian
Thanks a lot Roland. I shall need to sit at the instrument and work
through what you write. It's very good of you to take the time.
Mother Goose performance is this coming weekend (25th April). I have
a feeling that the audience may not be too critical of the odd fluffed
harmonic. Thanks again.
Ian.
Here's a pointer I just now stumbled across to something more specific, from
a contribution by Galen McAllister found here:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-12419.html

"The bible for harmonics in Ravel's music is "The Notation of Harmonics for
Double Bass: A Guide to the Orchestral Bass Parts of Maurice Ravel in
Simplified Chart Form" by Lucas Drew, University of Miami Music
Publications, available through Lemur for 3 or 4 bucks. If you're gonna
play Ravel, get it."
--
Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Roland Hutchinson
2005-04-23 01:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian
Mother Goose performance is this coming weekend (25th April). I have
a feeling that the audience may not be too critical of the odd fluffed
harmonic.
I thought someone had already mentioned this, but if so I don't see it on my
news server any more, so here goes:

The conductor should be able to advise you in case of any remaining doubt.
Part of knowing his or her business is, after all, knowing what pitches are
being called for in the score, in spite of any notational difficulties
posed by the score and/or the composer's quirks of notation (transpositions
and clefs to start with, but also things like harmonics and -- well, I
can't think of anything else at the moments, but harmonics for sure, which
occur and sort out slightly differently for strings, harp, and indeed even
some woodwind. At least harp has only -- I think -- two ways of notating
them, and flute only one! Harp makes up for this seeming simplicity by
having the two ways appear identical on the page, differing only in the
octave in which the harmonic is intended to sound -- come to think of it,
the same problem as crops up from time to time with double-bass harmonics!)

What I am sure of is that any conductor would rather have you ask before or
during the dress rehearsal rather than after the concert!
--
Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
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